Energy Talks

Mountain of Change

• Elmhurst Energy • Season 1 • Episode 4

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In our latest episode, Andrew Parkin is joined by Amo Sihra, Head of Commercial, and Sam Cantle, Head of Operations, to discuss all the recent and upcoming changes in the energy assessment world.

Listen now to hear about the Home Energy Model, PAS 2035,  upcoming conferences, government funded training, RdSAP 10 training, a CPD sale and much more!

Funded Energy and Retrofit Training:
https://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/government-funded-training-opportunities/

Elmhurst National Conference 2024:
https://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/product/elmhurst-national-conference/

CPD Sale (ends 15th December):
https://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/courses/?search=&delivery=&type=&area=&discounted=true 

Andrew Parkin: Hello and welcome to episode four of the Energy Talks Podcast. My name is Andrew Parkin. I'm the regular host of this podcast, as you may know, if you are a regular listener. It gives me great pleasure today to welcome two guests, both from Elmhurst Energy. I've got Sam Cantle, who is Head of Operations and Amo, Head of Commercial - I think that's the right title for you, Amo, but do you want to give us a little bit of what do you / what you do at the organization. What does commercial really mean in your world?

Amo Sihra: Yes, sure Andy. And so, yeah, for those who don't know me, my name is Amo Sihra, Head of Commercial. So when I say head of commercial, I look after the marketing and sales. So let's get clear, because I used to be involved in non-domestic a few years back when I first started my career with Elmhurst Energy. So yeah, I've been with Elmhurst for 14 years in October.

As I say, I started my career more on the technical side and I used to actually bump into Sam at some of these convention meetings. And then, yeah, so seven years into my career, on more of the technical side and managing some of the support teams, I then moved into Head of Commercial where I now look after the marketing and sales teams. I used to also be involved with the training department, but more recently we've had a bit of a restructure with the merger and everything, so that's now with Josh Wakeling; who’s looking after training. So yeah, just completely on marketing and sales.

Andrew Parkin: Brilliant. Yeah, I did want to sort of highlight that point because whenever I introduce you or talk about you, I have to be really clear that it's not commercial EPCs but a commercial role. So that's great. Thanks for filling us in on that one. Sam, you’re Head of Ops. Tell us a bit about your role and what you're doing now.

Sam Cantle: Yes. So I've moved across from Stroma as part of the merger. So previously at Stroma, I was actually the host of the Stroma podcast, but Andy has managed to nab that role off me as part of the merger.

Andrew Parkin: I’m sure it was a shared role Sam, I just want to be clear for the listeners – it was a shared role.

Sam Cantle: Okay, that's probably what it was. So yeah, so now I'm Head of Operations, so I oversee all of the EPBD teams, the retrofit teams and all of the different competency schemes that Elmhurst offer. So I work with all the business unit managers to make sure that we're compliant against any scheme operating requirements, making sure that the support for our members is where it needs to be and pretty much anything else that falls under the requirements of running a scheme, I suppose.

Andrew Parkin: Brilliant…I suppose similar role to the one you had before, but bigger. 10,000, 12,000 members, is it, something like that?

Sam Cantle: Yeah, I think, I think we're north of 12,000 odd members now post merger. So yeah, it's, it's a massive scheme across the board really. So it's definitely keeping me busy.

Andrew Parkin: Excellent. Well, we have to keep you busy, so that's good to hear. Okay well, that’s  introductions, I think, completed. These podcast as people will know started out from the Stroma side and when we merged the businesses together, we wanted to maintain this ‘best of both’ mantra and certainly that's why these have carried on. It's great that we've got sort of both sides of the merger on this podcast.

We are going to be talking about things that have happened, things that are going to happen, key events and changes that are coming down the line. And I think it's fair to say, just to sort of put some context around it, we are at the very start of what I've been almost saying for the last two or three years, I think, with my PEPA hat on - we are starting to see a lot of that change happening now. 

We're at the foothills of a mountain of change, and it's going to be probably five, maybe even ten years of things changing around and progress. But we're building a big framework of things that need to be done in order to have the best chance of doing the things that we need to do, like combating climate change, hitting net zero, reducing energy demand, switching everyone's heating systems from using fossil fuels, etc. to cleaner, greener methods of heating transportation changes, you name it, the whole thing's got to change and we're just starting out.

So it's quite a topical podcast. I'm going to start off with something that sort of very, very recently and, I suppose announced is not the right word, but it's come to the fore and we're starting to be aware of it, which is the home energy model. I'm going to hand over to Amo first on this one. Amo, what is the home energy model and what does it mean?

Amo Sihra: That's a very good question, Andy. So what is the home energy modeling? Well, I'll tell you as much as I know, because there is very little information out there at the moment. So I'll tell you what I know and what I think will happen. We do know that the SAP models will change name to home energy modeling.

We also know that we're expecting a consultation document any time soon, which will give us more detail. This is expected alongside the Future Homes consultation, and it's likely that the home energy modeling will be a central calculator and hosted on the gov. EPC register. So it's likely that accreditation schemes will allow competent people to access the calculator through some form of an approval process.

So, home energy modeling will also be a kind of wraparound around the central calculator. So just imagine the EPC as being a central calculator. This will kind of wrap around that. So just hold that in mind. So, with it being a wrap around the central calculator it - using an example - it may allow homeowners to look at their EPC writing and recalculate it based on potential energy efficiency improvements that they may want to explore.

So, you know, that's the kind of things it could do moving forward. We're also hearing that it may start to use a more dynamic calculation when calculating weather data, which calculates on an half hourly basis rather than a monthly basis - as the current SAP 10 calculator does. So that's quite a significant change there - if it moves in that direction. And that's as much information as I know for now.

And you know, I look forward to receiving more information when the consultation comes out and be able to answer more questions, which I'm sure we have, all of us have many in our mind at the moment. And of course, once we do have more information, we will let all our members know when it's out.

Andrew Parkin: I think, yeah. It is a complete change from where we are at the moment, which is, where we all write our engines, and the calculation engine sort of sits with schemes within the software and it is quite a challenge to put those things together. 

It is, as you say, really… we’re at the start of that. We've just kind of heard about it. We've heard rumblings about it in the past, but we've heard it more officially now. And as I think there's some more detail to come and obviously there'll be further meetings and a consultation. So we can't really pre-empt what that consultation will say or what it will do. But I think there’s some good ideas around that and I think there's some risks as well. 

I'm going to hand over to you, Sam, to talk about the things that you've heard and, you know, the meetings that you've been in around this, sort of, calculation as a service.

Sam Cantle: Yeah, I think that one of the first things to say is, in order for, you know, sometimes where you get wind of a consultation prior to the consultation being launched and what the intention is behind it. But I think in most cases when there is an intention to release a consultation, it's pretty clear the direction of travel. So I think it's a pretty safe bet at this point that this central engine is going to happen. 

I think that everything is pointing to that, irrespective of the fact that we are awaiting a consultation, we then have to wait for the results of that consultation. I think we're all preparing ourselves for a central calculation engine, which schemes plug into via a UI. And the big advantage of that for industry is a repeatable, accurate calculation where there are no variances depending upon which software you use.

Obviously, we try at the moment to make sure that all of our calculation engines are as accurate as possible. But when we build those calculation engines, we're testing them against a set number of test cases released by BRE, which is what every scheme does. So, they are accurate, as accurate as they can be against these test cases.

But these test cases can't possibly test every single scenario and every combination of possibilities that are listed within the methodology. So that is why sometimes in very odd circumstances there may be inconsistencies and those sometimes get highlighted to us. So, moving to a central calculation engine does mean that you will have that repeatability for every single assessment, irrespective of which UI you're using, which is obviously a benefit.

Some of the risks are, I suppose, that as a scheme we no longer have control over that calculation. So if there was to be an error in how it was built, it would require a published update and potentially, depending on what that is, then we as schemes who are developing a UI would have to potentially adjust our UI on the fly in order to accommodate that.

So, as a scheme, we do lose an element of control. I think some of the other things that are being discussed around, as Amo has mentioned, the half hourly weather data - this is all building towards a picture of more accurate calculations, which I think everybody wants, everyone thinks is a good thing. There's a lot of conversation at the moment in industry around, is the EPC fit for purpose?

When, what we should actually be talking about is, are RdSAP and SAP fit for purpose, because EPC is obviously just a certificate of visual representation of those methodologies. The problem with half hourly weather data and some of the other changes that we're being told they're looking to make to make everything more accurate is the length of time it takes to run these calculations.

At the moment, anyone who uses SAP software will know that they are just able to make a change or make multiple changes, make mass updates, generate batch reports. All of these features which SAP assessors have become very accustomed to, and so have their clients and they can be done with just the click of a finger. With these additional half hourly weather data, we understand that calculations could take sort of up to 60 seconds to run. So, we're sort of, you know, bordering into the lines of how the non-domestic calculation is currently run when you calculate at the end of doing all of your data entry. So it's worth talking about. 

It's very early days, but I think from an industry perspective, there may need to be an adjustment in terms of how people work because some of the on the fly functionality they’re used to may not be possible in SAP 11 - in the new home energy model and that won't be at the control of the scheme.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah.

Amo Sihra: I must say I totally agree with Sam there. And Sam, is it fair to say probably that… we’re saying up to 60 seconds. I mean, from our experience being involved in the non domestic, where dynamic simulation modeling does get used. You know, depending on the complexities of the building, you probably looking at even over that time scale isn't it.

Sam Cantle: Yeah, it potentially could be and that is just for one calculation. So, at the moment when you are modeling SAP assessments within SAP 10, every time you make a change in the software, it updates the rating. So you can see that updated as you go through the assessment. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about one calculation running at the end, where all the data entry has been made and that being a, you know, shall we say 60 seconds to run that, that's just for one.

So if you're looking to do any batch calculations, if you're modeling, you know, a block of flats and you want to, you know, produce EPCs at the end of that process, potentially that's 60 seconds for every EPC your generating. So that time adds up quite quickly. Yeah.

Andrew Parkin: I think you also, it sounds like you're going to have to be online and using an online tool. And I know some of the difficulties of moving from a tool that's installed on a device to an online system. You know, that's been a relatively difficult process – DEAs have done it years ago because it seemed natural to do that because of the nature of the work.

It does feel like there's a big jump if we are to move everything online. We're already halfway through that. But if you haven't gone online, you know, or you've lost the internet, it's going to be quite hard to justify to not being able to do a calculation without, you know, that facility. So I think there's a lot to unpack. There's a lot to understand. We haven't seen all the information or been privy to some of the information yet. So we have to sort of have a look at it and then come back to our members. 

I think one of the things that Elmhurst does really well, and I say this having been on the other side of the fence, is that consultations are dealt with really well, they’re dealt with in good time and the opinions of Elmhurst are published well in advance of the consultation closing so members can have a look at them. And equally we try and get the feedback from our members as well on certain key items. So, and w’ere going to be out seeing our members – I will come back to events in a second Amo, so just keep that one in the back of your mind. 

I'm going to move on because we have spent around 13 minutes talking about one thing, which is what sometimes happens on these podcasts. It is an incredibly important moment in time for our industry though. So raising it early and talking about it is absolutely the right thing to do. Okay, something else that's changing, which is relatively impactful, is PAS 2035. I'm going to say a few words on this and then, Sam, I’ll handover over to you just briefly on this.

I think everyone's aware that if you're working in the retrofit industry, that we use PAS 2035 as the sort of main standard, particularly if you're doing anything for the government. PAS 2035 is king. It’s changing. We've had all of that run through this year and we've now got a new version which is free to download from the BSI website for anybody who wants it, which is really great because that doesn't normally happen. So do download it. Do take a look at it. 

There are some key changes in there that are going to have an impact, but we just don't know when they're going to be implemented. It's probably some time next year. And we also know that it's a retrofit assessor standard that's being written at the moment and the steering group are nearing completion. We're hoping by the end of the year, fingers crossed that will be done and ready to go out for initial consultation. So again, a whole period of change. But, Sam, do you want run through some of the key headlines that you were aware of for PAS 2035.

Sam Cantle: Yeah, there is quite a lot, but I'll just I'll just flag a couple of examples. So the risk path procedure that we're currently familiar with within PAS 2035 is being removed. So there's been some changes to various factors. In example being retrofit designer qualification requirements are now based on the number of measures being installed. There is some changes around traditional construction definition. I think maybe that might get touched on later when we touch on training. 

The other thing that will be in the new PAS 2035 is criteria for air tightness and leakage strategies. So where there is an improvement to the building fabric then air tightness or leakage strategy is required. So that might be that compliance is required by a proven test. Obviously, if that's not in the strategy, then that's not a mandatory requirement. But it does mean that we foresee that being more air tests carried out in the retrofit space. 

And then I think the other thing is there have been various updates to the criteria of qualification. So that affects retrofit assessors, coordinators, designers, etc.. And there is also some more information being released on ventilation and significant assessment.

We do have a news page or news article released on this which highlights the main points, which I'd encourage people to go and have a look at. It's on the Elmhurst News page, but in the interest of time, hopefully that's okay Andy, for now.

Andrew Parkin: I think awareness is important and direction of where they need to go to get more information. Well done, Sam – that was nicely summarized. 

I'll move on to something that's a little bit more, I suppose, context related, a little bit more wider ranging. And I from a personal point of view, think its a real disappointment in terms of the trajectory that we were expecting from a net zero perspective in which I know of course I'm talking about what the Prime Minister had to say last month, I think it was last month now where he, they, basically had a U-turn on a number of green policies or future policies that all sort of work towards bringing about net zero. Things like the boiler moving to heat pump process, time scales on electric vehicles and outlawing gasoline and diesel vehicles. But more impactful in our industry was - well it wasn't just a pause in minimum energy efficiency standards - but basically taking them off the table for the foreseeable which I got pretty angry about on LinkedIn anyone who had a look on there would have seen my feelings at the time. I have calmed down a little bit on the basis that we still have a job to do. 

Buildings still need to improve because these minimum standards will come in. I don't there's any other way of improving buildings without having a standard to aim for and then to move that standard on. We can build new buildings, but at the rate that we're building them at the moment, we cannot replace the housing stock within that time period, nor should we.

There are plenty of buildings that are very much usable and will continue to be livable in usable for hundreds of years, you know, by just knocking them down to start again, how much carbon are we going to actually be releasing as a result of that? So we've got to make best use of the buildings that we have and then, you know, constantly be adding new buildings to that stock, mostly because there's the demand.

You know, we have more people in in this country than we've ever had. And that in itself is a challenge because we're just adding to the problem. So we've got to decarbonize our buildings and we've got to do it in a in a structured manner. So I was really disappointed to see it. I don't think it's a strong message. I think it's quite easy to counter against that and I certainly seems to be the way that the opposition parties are looking at it. And obviously we've got an election next year and we don't know when exactly, but it's either going to be before the summer or after the summer. I know that sounds like a cop out, but it's true.

I don't think that will hold on until winter because turnout in winter is just dreadful. And that's not great for pretty much any party, but particularly for the Tory party. So I think we're looking at probably October and it all depends on the financial outcomes, what's happening in, you know, in terms of have they managed to half inflation, have they managed to create some growth if all of those sort of economic signposts are saying yes, they're in a stronger position and therefore an election is more likely around the time of that news.

And you have to accept, I think we all have to accept that political parties will play those political games that they're in - they're in power and they have the right to do that as long as they you know, they do call an election by a certain time period. So I think it's going to be a changeable year from a political point of view.

I don't know, guys, if you've got anything to add to that. Amo, particularly around the election, what your thoughts are.

Amo Sihra: Yeah, I mean, just go back to net zero U-turn and I mean, yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, it's you know, the UK has got the worst performing buildings in Europe and it's most certainly a backwards step and I know there's lots of negativity around this but on a positive note, you know, some of the people who have been speaking out there too, in the industry -  there's lots of tenants and home buyers. You know, it's very high up on their agenda. What the EPC rating is of a building. So I think the market will self-drive towards, you know, more energy efficient homes. Where in the past you'd have someone who would wait ten years to replace their EPC. Well, actually, if they’re having a boiler replacement, they’ll get another EPC done because they want to show that their properties have better rating and it's more likely them to sell the property, or get a new tenant in. And so I think, yes, there's lots of negativity around that. It's a U-turn, but I think the market will start to, you know, self-drive itself really.

Andrew Parkin: Sam, anything to add, particularly from the commercial side of things because we've not had the clarity apart from that MEES for commercial is still on the table.

Sam Cantle: Yeah. So the positive spin in the non-domestic, we're going to call it non domestic, Andy, to avoid the confusion of Amo’s job title.

Andrew Parkin: Absolutely, 100%.

Sam Cantle: Say so in the non-domestic area we've had confirmation that the Prime Minister's announcement does not affect the trajectory of what's currently happening for non-domestic MEES. So that's positive. The other positive thing is I think even if even if things changed in that sphere politically, people are taking MEES seriously and they're doing it for their own benefit, their own benefit and their own reasons anyway.

I think actually at this point, the number of non-domestic building owners and landlords who are who are doing this from a point of view of making their properties better for their tenants to reduce bills. All of those reasons, it's driving forward by itself anyway. So it's obviously positive that we've had confirmation the announcement doesn't affect the non-domestic sector, but actually the non-domestic sector from what we can tell, is pushing on regardless.

Andrew Parkin: Brilliant. Yeah, I mean, I will say this in a bit of balance. We've had a bit of feedback as well to say that immediately after the Prime Minister's announcement they did see their work drop and I'm not surprised by that. I'm hoping it picked back up because there's been a bit more clarity put out there about it. But we still need that clarity.

We still need that result, those outcomes from the consultation, because the consultation was for both domestic and non-domestic and we're still outstanding a resolution to both of those. So I'm going to be working very hard with PEPA and with BEEF - The British Energy Efficiency Federation  great abbreviation, to push / to hold government to account on that we need that clarity because without it, you know, we end up with confusion and nobody wants that.

We just need to get on with the job in hand and then just on the job in hand, itself, from a regulatory point of view, we have now had confirmation that the energy bill, energy security bill, whatever you want to call it, has gone through parliament and has now been / had it’s third reading and it's been signed off.

And that would seem fairly insignificant unless you knew what that meant. But effectively, there's a whole raft of different things that the government wants to do. And I think this is fairly cross-party as well. The government wants to do and needs to do in terms of deployment of energy related regulations, one of which is EPBD or the UK version of that, which again is sort of a devolved administrative responsibility so that there'll be a bit of a wash through to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, but that allows the Government to start to take some of these European laws and make them their own – it’s ratified now, it allows them to start changing them and editing them and through the EPC Action Plan and hopefully a consultation, which is due very soon. So it's consultation city. We will start to see what the intention of government is and what they're going to be working on. 

One of those areas that's absolutely key and I think everybody agrees on this and I spoke about this yesterday at Homes UK, was the portability and the freedom of moving that data around that sits behind the EPC. Without that, things are very difficult in terms of strategy and for housing association, landlords, etc., being able to do anything with their EPC data and understanding what they need to do to the buildings in order to improve standards. So I just thought I'd highlight that point. I don't know if anybody's got anything else to say on it. I think I've covered everything there.

Amo Sihra: Perfectly yeah. I will just say that this is a step in the right direction, really, and long awaited.

Andrew Parkin: Absolutely, excellent. Sam, anything before we move on?

Sam Cantle: No, I'm quite happy that.

Andrew Parkin: Excellent. Good. Right. Well, let's move onto what we're doing over the next sort of 12 months. So we've talked about some major changes. We need to start talking about those major changes or informing our members as and when they’re happening? 

Amo, what are we doing next year? Where are we going to be?

Amo Sihra: Well, I'm delighted to announce after great success from our last year’s national conference, we will be doing another national conference on the 27th of February at our Leicester City football stadium (also known as King Power Stadium). So yeah, we'll be doing a national conference there and not only in England will also be doing conferences in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. So for us it is all about being out there, meeting all of our members and obviously the regulations and updates and news are all different for different areas. So we want to make sure we are being specific and we're giving the right updates and, and news to our members. So yeah, we've got four of those running next year.

That's our events, but it doesn't stop there. We're also going to be attending lots of other events. So when I say other events, we’re attending the CABE live event at Excel in London, that's on the 5th and 6th of December. The focus on that is going to be very much around the new build sector. And then we're also Futurebuild aswell next year in March - 5th and 7th of March. So we're going to be at the retrofit zone. So as it is a retrofits zone, we will be very much focused around our retrofit offering. We will have our software tools all on display and demo them and will also be there to answer any questions, queries and give any updates within the retrofit sector. 

But we've got we've got lots of events and I'll just like to mention that this is an area where we continue to invest in, and we are investing more than we've ever done before, and it is about investing in our members interest and their services and promoting their services, which is why we do these events and we’re out there. 

So, you know, there's a range of events we’ll be at, It is normally myself and the sales team as a minimum but I know Andy, Sam, you'll also be at the futurebuild one as well. So what I will say to all of you is keep an eye on LinkedIn or social media and do pop in and say hello to us.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, I mean, we will be out in force. And because we've got that investment in the industry, because I think we are a significant voice out there. We have a responsibility to be at these events and I take that responsibility very seriously. I know everybody else does. We will be speaking at various other events around the country.

We were at Homes UK yesterday, talking about PAS and RdSAP 10 and all sorts of things. And I think having all of that change happening next year and then going forward, we've got to start informing people what that really means and that's the only way to do it, is to get to all of these events. I think we're the only scheme that has such a reach and the capability of doing it and therefore we have to take that responsibility with us.

So I'm delighted that Amo, you and your team are working so hard to get us in those places and have us speaking and the investment in the conferences. I know how much money goes into putting those events on and how much time and effort. And I think it’s absolutely essential is brilliant that we get to every single part of the UK and see as many people as possible.

Sam, any thoughts on events at all?

Sam Cantle: No, not really. It's Amo’s area really. But like Amo said, futurebuild is one of the ones I'm very keen on attending. It's one of the biggest events of the year that we go to - three days down at the Excel in London. Quite a lot of our members do come and see us those events, so it's always nice to see people face to face and have a good catch up and there's loads and loads of interesting talks that happen across the three days. We're often on the panel or doing various guest speaker slots as well. So I'd say to any member really as well as just coming in to, to see it, to see us, check out the agenda. There's some really interesting stuff happening indeed.

Andrew Parkin: Indeed, and it's a great opportunity for members to see your new haircut as well, which obviously on a podcast you can't see it and I won't spoil the surprise, but it's there.

Sam Cantle: I was going to mention something in my in my sort of review of this year versus last year. But, it’s suffice to say that I had hair prior to the merger.

Andrew Parkin: We will leave that there then. I mean, I don't know if the two are related. Maybe we can speculate later on if we've got time. Okay. So that's events and I think, you know, big changes, lots of events. Amo makes a really good point about making sure that you're connected to his on social media.

LinkedIn is the key one for me. But obviously there are things like X (Twitter) or whatever you want to call it, Facebook, others that I don't use. So I make sure you are connected to us and keep obviously keep an eye out on the emails. We've got a new notification system within our member's area within Access Elmhurst, which we are looking at continually improving so that there's more information but in different places for people. You know, people like to get information in different ways, so just keep an ear to the ground. We're going to be talking an awful lot about things. 

One of the things that we do need to talk about that's going to help us with this change is training. Training is a big part of what we do now. We have a dedicated department for it with a dedicated head of, as Amo mentioned earlier, with Josh Wakeling, responsible for that department now. And I think the government is looking very hard at what we do in terms of training - the national occupational standards. And I think that's because they know that change is coming. So we need to stay on top of all of these things and that's why CPD is so important, etc. 

Amo, first and foremost. We've got some government funded training which we're very proud to have been awarded for the second year in a row. What does that mean?

Amo Sihra: Very delighted, first of all. So yeah, I mean, it's great to see that government continue to invest in this area. And so yeah, we've been successful for the third time actually. So we're now on the homes decarbonization, phase two funding. So yes, it's a great opportunity really for our members because it allows us to offer training at a heavily subsidized costs, you know. So it's a fraction of what it would normally cost.

So for example, we're offering retrofit assessor training for anyone who's a qualified DEA at a fraction of the price. And it allows us to offer, you know, great value out there to our members and any new entrants coming into the sector. And what I will say about training, as all, you know, it doesn't stop with Elmhurst at training. We're an accreditation body, so the output for us of quality is very important because we're feeding into accreditation.

So, you know, it allows us to get good people into the industry and make sure it's to that quality level, which is what we've always, always been about. But yeah, I mean, I’m really delighted – there’s lots of opportunity. And I would just say if you want more details about all the training courses we're running and ones that are through the government funded route, do go on a website, it's all on there.

Andrew Parkin: Well, absolutely. I think just to touch on the new entrant stuff, I do get feedback from conferences and things which is… well why we training more people. There's enough people in the industry and that's a difficult one to answer. I can't stand behind that viewpoint. I think we always need new people coming into the industry.

We need to see the industry develop and improve and we need to bring new, excitable, you know, forward thinking people into the industry. And you have to start with some of the core competencies like RdSAP and DEA. And so I think there's always going to be a bit of a churn as well within the industry. But we're a growing industry. You know, this is going to be energy efficiency of buildings and anything to do with decarbonization is going to be key for the next 20, 30 years, if not beyond. And therefore, it's an investment in the industry. You know, we have seen fly by night and people coming in and out of the industry, mostly around incentives and government backed funded mechanisms. Things are a bit more steady these days.

I'd like to see a lot more funding coming into the market because I think it's needed. But equally, we need to build up some of the frameworks and we need to be able to deliver at scale. And we can't do scale unless you've got lots of competent, good people. So we have to invest in the new blood coming in. I don't want people thinking it's just about bringing new people in. We don't care about the members that we've got. Of course, we do. And your first point, Amo, was about this is as much as anything. In fact, it's a bigger opportunity for our members because there's more funding for that. People who are already in the industry to upskill them.

So yeah, I'm all for that. One of the areas that we are looking at and is covered by the funding is traditional buildings, Sam, and you know, I can talk about that from a training point of view, but why is that important? You mentioned earlier, that something's changing in the PAS around traditional buildings.

Yes, that's right. So in terms of retrofit, the previous, I believe it is risk path C was essentially the risk path associated with older and traditional buildings. So if you are working in that space, then you need to have done that training and qualification. Looking at the new PAS, obviously we don't know when that's going to land as Andy has mentioned earlier, but the involvement of that qualification will sit across multiple different areas.

Both retrofit assessor and coordinator will have access to or need to have access to that qualification. Whereas, it was just to just to be needed in a specific area of retrofit before, it is going to be a far more useful qualification and it's going to be / you're going to need to have that to work within the retrofit space in many of the retrofit spaces under the new PAS 2035.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, I actually think understanding more about traditional buildings, even, you know, you're fairly bog standard terraced housing from the Victorian period makes you a better energy assessor, if you just go back to the core competencies, it's not particularly well covered, which is being reviewed at the moment but I think the course is good. But we're going to do something slightly different, aren't we Sam, around the application as opposed to the knowledge we want to make it more tailored to our members?

Sam Cantle: Yeah, I think it's fair to say that, you know, and this isn't about in any way knocking the existing traditional buildings training that's available elsewhere. But we recognize that, and the feedback we had from a lot of our retrofit members, was that the traditional buildings qualification and training that they had received was - while it was good  it was quite theoretical, maybe less practical. And there were areas of it which felt like it didn't really apply to them and their role in the retrofit process. So I think we took that feedback when we are building our traditional buildings course and it really is tailored at retrofit assessors and retrofit coordinators. It's specifically aimed at those people to gain the most out of that training and carry that through into what they will be doing day in, and day out. So that was our focus when building the qualification.

Andrew Parkin: I mean, that's really interesting. I think it's a step, a massive step in the right direction. And the fact that that's now being offered out through this funding mechanism is fantastic. So if you're interested in that, obviously go to the website and apply. 

RdSAP 10, Sam. To come back to you again. That's coming down the line. We've got plenty of details now on whats going to be in the new methodology? What are we doing about that in terms of training.

Sam Cantle: Yeah, well RdSAP 10 is coming thick and fast and we're pushing forward now with sort of approval, an approval time frame for schemes lining up around mid-April at the moment. So it's really not that long, is the point there. So we know what the changes are in the methodology. We've created a training course for that. It's the one-day CPD course for our members.

We've run five of them already. They're very popular and selling out really quick. But essentially it is to cover all the different changes within the methodology of which there are quite a few and quite a few of them will impact on our assessors. A very immediate example that comes to mind being windows. In RdSAP 10, everyone will have to measure all windows - that is a requirement. There are no more default assumptions within the software as the size of the windows. So that's an example of one of the main changes within RdSAP ten, but it's all covered on our CPD training day. So have a look and attend because it's some really, really useful information that all of our DEAs and retrofit assessors will need to know come April next year.

And we're also at the moment heavily developing our RdSAP 10 software. And the intention is for us to come out in the new year, probably around February / March time, once our software is built, so that we can demonstrate that to members. So we will be running some roadshows and we would really like it if people can come and see us.

Andrew Parkin: Excellent. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. The more we can see, the better. Obviously various methods of delivering that information as well. It's a big change. I think it's the first one I can remember since 2014 or so where we've had more than just a couple of sort of significant changes to the methodology and people need to understand them, especially now that people are far more focused on the EPC, the rating it's being used for a number of other things. You’ve really got to get clued up on what the impact of those changes are going to be and that's why we've got different levels of training and different offerings out there, so that we can explore things in more detail where needed, where people want to know more. I'm really excited about it. I think it is a step in the right direction. 

I think there's a lot of things in there that we've been asking for - things like battery storage. We’ve been calling for for yonks. So new technologies arriving in - air testing figures results, being able to put that in will make a significant difference into the trust on the methodology and the ability to bring in things like measured test results for the first time. So we have theoretical values that can go in from the data tables or you might be able to override a u-value. But this is the first time I can think of where we're able to bring in a result that's been derived from a test on site and override what is a pretty ropey assumption, which is I think is 15 air changes per hour, which if anybody knows anything about air testing, and I don't, is about the equivalent of a beach ball sized hole in your wall. Now I don't know many properties that do have that – there are some very leaky properties obviously, but a lot of properties perform better than that. And I think this has got other applications, particularly in the world of retrofit as well, which uses the methodology of being able to get an air test done and have that reflected in the calculation.

So it's cool really, let's be be frank, I like new things and it is a really cool new thing and I think it does lend itself to other types of testing, which we're looking at further down the line in the role that I've taken it within the organization, things like measures and energy performance, which we won't talk about today because… well, we haven't got the time and I think it's definitely one for a podcast for the near future.

So all I will say is that RdSAP has been my baby for 15 years or so, and I know that other people within the business feel exactly the same as I do. We have been waiting so long for this methodology to land and it will be the first one in a couple of methodologies that will come in over a relatively short period of time, not waiting eight years for the next one. The roadmap is quite clear that 2025 and 2026 are the two years where we will see changes to the methodologies again. So this will be a, I suppose, an interim step, but a step in the right direction. So cool. 

So one final thing on training before we move on. We are getting to the end of the year, Sam, and it, as is tradition, we expect people to have done their CPD for the for the year. I know that people have challenges and people are busy throughout the year and CPD sometimes falls by the wayside in people's minds, but they generally want to do it because it's good for them. They get to learn new skills. They get up-to-the-minute information. What's happening around CPD, what we're doing about the audit, and is there an offer on? I read something about an offer somewhere.

Sam Cantle: Yes, it’s obviously that time of the year where CPD is on everybody's minds. So yeah, it's just a plea, I think, for everybody to get onto the Access Elmhurst area, go to your CPD section and upload any CPD that you've done for the year. Make sure you're within the CPD requirements. And also if you go to the Elmhurst website, we are currently running a 50% off deal on all of our on-demand CPD - it is limited time only. It's just running up to Christmas, or just before Christmas. So yeah, go onto the website, have a look at loads and loads of courses for you to choose from and like I say, a 50% off at the moment. So take the opportunity while its there. 

Andrew Parkin: That is very generous. I think 50% off – that’s like a Black Friday sale isn't it. But it's running for a bit longer than the usual Black Friday sale. So do take advantage of that and make sure to update your CPD logs and your records for 2023 – here’s an opportunity to do it now. The other thing I will say about CPD, from my perspective, because I have some responsibility for the training department, is that we are working really hard on lots of new content, bringing the Stroma content over and making it available to all members. That’s going to be really helpful because there's probably about 20 or 30 courses there that are going to land in the mix, you know. 

So and then next year there's going to be a whole raft of new things that we need to start exploring. So keep your ear to the ground about those sorts of things and if you can, think about what you want to do next year. We like this concept of putting together a personal development plan. We love an abbreviation – so a PDP - and think about what's coming down the line. Think of the things that we're talking about now and write it down. You don't have to formally do it. Just write down on a post-it note, stick it on your monitor or something. Just say these are the four or five areas that I want to cover in the next year and tick them off when you do them, because then, you know, you've covered the things that you think are important. And if that changes, that's cool. There's going to be plenty of information going out there to our members and lots of opportunities to do formalised CPD. So keep your ear to the ground. 

Right? Let's move on. We're getting towards the end of the year and there's a couple of things to deal with first towards the end of this conversation. But I want to think about what's going to happen next year. Aside from the things we've talked about, I want to make some predictions, and I've challenged you both with thinking about what might happen next this year. Amo, I'm going to go to you. What do you think is going to happen with your, you know, your crystal ball, your market predicting crystal ball, where are we going and what’s going to happen in the industry?

Amo Sihra: Yeah, Okay. So, I do report on some market stats within our Energy Matters newsletter on a quarterly basis and for anyone who reads that, which I assume everyone does read those, you know that the market has been doing very well throughout the year. Recently we have started to see that the actual domestic sector slowing down slightly. And I think that is obviously due to all the interest rate rises, high inflation, uncertainty in the market. So there's been a slight drop recently. 

Non domestic, although has kind of leveled off. So that continues to be, you know, pretty rocket high in terms of EPCs. But predicting, moving forward, I think it will continue to slow down the overall markets across all strands will slow down towards the end of the year and I think that will continue into the new year/January and probably towards the end of February, beginning of March.

I think the markets will start to pick up and the energy prices are not going any lower. And as I say, EPCs are high on the agenda for many people out there. And how they can make their properties more energy efficient. So I think the market will self-drive and I think it will be probably more positive than the negativity out there currently. come February, March.

Andrew Parkin: Okay. Yeah, it's difficult isn't it, to know exactly how that's all going to play out. But I think, you know, you do a great job. Don't, don't dig yourself down and people read your stuff. I do. And I think it's important to understand how the market is performing because you can make better decisions upon what you do with your business and where to go next, if things are starting to move around or slow down a bit or, you know, some parts of the sector are really up, but we are seeing some great growth in key areas. And non-domestic, as you say, has been one of those success areas this year.

Amo Sihra: Sorry, Andy, just one thing I would like to add to that - I know we're running out of time-  but when you do look at our stats, the housing sales have significantly fallen over the last six months - significantly. And when you look at EPCs in comparison, they normally follow the same flow, but they haven't and have continued to be pretty high compared to house sales. So that does tell me that there are lots of other reasons why people are getting EPCs out there. So it's a lot more positive even though it's slowing down.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. You know, people are having EPCs done for other reasons. They want to know more information about the properties, they want to update the information if they're using it in a transaction rather than just relying on the nine-year-old or eight-year-old EPC. I still know that goes on, but I think agents have taken the more responsible approach to the data that they providing.

And there is some regulations now in place around misinformation, misselling, misrepresentation of a property. So I think that's driving a few things forward as well. These are all the tools that our members need to use when they're talking to their clients and I think it does add value to what they do, which if they can add value to what they do, they can charge a better price, and then the world starts to get a little bit easier for everybody.

So I think it's really important that they use the information that you're gathering to their advantage and Elmhurst have put together and will continue to put together further guides on, for how to work with their clients. They can print off and give to their clients information sheets, etc., etc. because we recognize that you need help and support in these areas.

Shameless plug. I know. Sorry. So, Sam, over to you about the ops angle, the operational angle. What can you draw conclusions from this year and an apply to next year? What do you think's going to happen?

Sam Cantle: Well, for me this year, you know, we are now, almost exactly 12 months on from when we first merged, one of the strands between Stroma and Elmhurst. So I think that, you know, it's been a very, very busy year and the focus of this year has been the merge of the two businesses, the migration of members across and trying to make things as smooth as possible and as easy as possible. Really the focus this year is has essentially just been maintaining our service level through that entire process because we've got to do things gradually. There's been a huge amount of work that's gone in. 

It will be nice to draw this year to a close and start next year with a focus on pushing on and evolving, I suppose, evolving the service that we provide. You know, we have pulled our resources together as one of the big selling points of doing the merge in the first place was we were, both companies were struggling with recruitment. We are both struggling with resource. We've combined our forces together and the intention for next year is to really push on and make our scheme as valuable as possible to our members. Making sure we are releasing regular bulletins, news articles, we're doing CPD events, we're providing training opportunities and also focusing on some of the other areas that we can add value to our members, such as competency schemes, something that other schemes don't – our competitors don't do. And you know, and I know that we've got some exciting things coming down the line which should hopefully improve things for our members.

We've got quite a big announcement at the national conference, which I'm not going to steal Amo’s thunder on, but more to come. If you're interested, come to national conference, I would say at the beginning of next year.

Andrew Parkin: I was going to step in there and stop you before you said anything, Sam, but you’ve done that for yourself. So that's good.

Sam Cantle: Well, there we go. I think the point is, is that this year has been very much about getting through it, making sure that people are able to continue unaffected - next year is where we're really looking to bring the value.

Andrew Parkin: That's a good segway into, you know, my point, which is going to be there's so much to come next year. We're going to have some clarity. We’re going to be at the end of some consultations - we'll have some new ones. Well, we'll have an idea of direction of travel on and off for a lot of things. We will have had an election. And in between all of that, we're going to be releasing some really, really, good software solutions, putting some operational improvements in place for our members, make things easier, more effective for people. So, yeah, I think it's going to be a really exciting year and I'm very much looking forward to it. So yeah, that kind of leaves me with any sort of final thoughts about anything, anything you want to add before we finish.

Amo Sihra: No, I'd just like to finish off by thanking all our members for their support in 2023. And I just think you know everything what Sam has said for next year. We’re very excited about next year because we've got some really exciting new product launches and there's lots of new things we're going to launch with. I can't say too much at this stage, but yeah, really excited. But it's going to be a lot of adding value for our members next year. So just really excited for next year and thank you.

Andrew Parkin: Thank you. And Sam, anything else to add to that?

Sam Cantle: No I think Amo summarised it. You know, operationally, it's going to be going to be a brand new year for us. We've got everything in place now. All the schemes have merged together and we'll be pushing on pushing on next year.

Andrew Parkin: Indeed. Good message. Yes, let’s see how we evolve together. Right. Okay. Well, that just leaves me to thank our listeners for listening to this podcast. This is the fourth episode - it's the last one of the year. So whilst I'm saying thank you to our members and our listeners, I also want to say Merry Christmas and it’s a bit early - doesn't quite feel right saying it in late November, but I will if you're listening to this, you know, after Christmas, then I hope you've had a very merry Christmas. 

But hopefully everyone has listened to it before. Have a very merry Christmas and a happy New Year. I’m looking forward to seeing you all in 2024 at the various events that we're going to be at. And if you are not a subscriber yet, please do subscribe and you will get these things delivered to you automatically every time we release one. Various platforms are out there now. So we've got, you know, on the Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or directly on our website and I hope you join us for the next one. 

But in the meantime, Merry Christmas, have a happy New Year and, yeah, see you all in 2024. Thank you.