Understanding the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC)

In our first episode of this brand-new series, host Andrew Parkin is joined by Stuart Fairlie and special guest Keeran Jugdoyal from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (DLUHC). Join them as they discuss why EPCs are important, the current criticism surrounding them, and what the future holds.

Chapters

• 0:14 Introductions
• 2:32 Overview of an EPC
• 16:48 Recent News and Criticism
• 22:45 Consumer Education
• 28:29 Future Plans and Changes
• 38:53 Final Thoughts

Transcript

Andrew Parkin: Hello, everyone. My name is Andrew Parkin and welcome to this Season One, Episode One of the ‘Energy Talks’ podcast. Now, it's an interesting one because, as history will teach us, it's important to make a big deal of your first-ever sort of episode. This is actually a continuation of a podcast series that was done through Stroma Certification, but we're going to do things bigger, we’re going to do things better on Energy Talks, and I’m glad that we’re back doing podcasts.

Just to do some introductions. Obviously, we've got Stuart Fairlie here, the MD of Elmhurst Energy Systems. Do you want to say hello?

Stuart Fairlie: Hello, everybody. 

Andrew Parkin: Excellent, so there we go. And it gives me great pleasure to welcome Keeran Jugdoyal from DLUHC to give it in its abbreviated form. Keeran, do you want to do a very brief announcement and introduction into who you are and what you do at DLUHC? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for inviting me on the very first podcast. So yeah, at DLUHC, I'm the head of the Energy Performance of Buildings Regulations Team, and also I'm also the head of DLUHC’s Net-Zero Buildings Hub, and I'm responsible for the actual law and regulations that govern the production of EPCs and the other Energy Display Certificates and Air Conditioning Inspection Reports. 

Andrew Parkin: So quite the remit. And obviously, everything that is in your world is in our world, and we do spend an awful lot of time talking about various things at invariably similar meetings or you coming to various conferences that we’re at. So it's great to have you here, and I do really appreciate you giving your time up to talk to us today about what is really important stuff for our industry, the EPC, and what it does o,  more importantly, what it doesn't do.

There will be people who listen to this podcast who have a passing interest in EPCs and may be coming to learn about EPCs for the first time, or they're long in tooth energy assessors that have been around the block since the very start. 

So it's always a good idea for us to just introduce the subject of what the EPC is all about. And I'll just keep it fairly light and breezy, really. So I think we all agree EPCs are an important part of what this country is doing towards moving towards net zero, fighting climate change, and trying to alleviate fuel poverty. But what do they do, Stuart? What is their primary purpose? 

Stuart Fairlie: I think I think if you go back, I think this is a good question, isn't it? Because I think the question of what they don't do is equally as important as what they do do, so it’s a good point. And to my mind, an energy certificate is a base position of a building with some people in it. And it tries to predict what that building will use (and I'm using my words quite carefully, whether that's energy in kilowatts or monetary spend, or carbon emissions), and it allows the usefulness of that [information] to be presented back to the building owner to make hopefully some good decisions.

Most of them will also get recommendations, and they do subtly different things in different buildings, but fundamentally it's the base position, and they use the national calculation methodology to give a reasonably accurate set of information – that is the best way to describe it to building owners and the best way I could explain an energy certificate. Yeah, and Keeran, this is your day-to-day. Anything to add to that? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, I will say that, you know, the government tends not to try and intervene in things unless there's a genuine market failure that others can't address. And I think, you know, as people when you're stood in front of the estate agent window looking at various properties, you can, you can tell things just by looking at it, and if you go and look at the places, you can open cupboards and have a look and figure things out for yourself. But the energy performance of the building is something that's a bit less tangible, requires a bit of expertise, and the EPC kind of fills, you know, it fixes that market failure. And I think it's a vital part of allowing people to be informed at that point where they're making those really important decisions, you know, buying or renting a home is a really big decision for any one of them, and it’s there to kind of provide that gap. 

Stuart Fairlie: Yeah, and I was going to go back to the basics. You’re absolutely right, and I think that you know, this sort of A-G sticker that people saw, probably first saw on the side of their fridges really (it sort of made a difference in that market). The idea that people, as Keeran said, can make a really good choice or at least have the information to be able to make that choice is maybe a better way to describe it – but it is that.

I think we're in a space now where we want the people to start to look at more than just the A-G label, and that probably will come out of our conversation later today. There's so much more behind it, but that’s almost like the headline grabber, isn’t it – it’s A, or it’s G – and I think we've just got to be informing people of what that means.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, I think if I was to add to that, I think they are simple, but they are complicated, and that in itself is a blessing and a curse because more and more people are interested in energy and energy performance and cost of living has sort of brought into focus the energy crisis and the cost of energy. And so, people are interested, and they want to know more.

And as you scratch away at the surface of what is a very simple message - improve your building, save money, save energy, save the planet - that kind of messaging, there is actually quite a lot of complexity behind the methodologies. They've been around a long time, they've evolved, and they’ve developed, and they are complicated. They take some very, very clever people a long time to put together and to evolve them as well.

So I think if somebody asked me to add something that they didn't know about them, as an example. The difference between domestic and commercial EPCs is something that's fairly subtle but is not well understood by anybody outside of our industry. And that kind of brings us to other points as well. So domestic EPC is weighted heavily by the cost of fuel. So the cheaper your fuel, the better your rating tends to be (obviously depends on how efficient the building is as well). Whereas commercial EPCs are weighted by the carbon. 

And then, that, I think, segways fairly nicely into why did we focus on fuel policy for the domestic - I mean, the fuel cost - and why did we focus on carbon for commercial? And is there an opportunity to do both of those? I don't know. Keeran, is that something that your department has probably had those same sorts of questions multiple times over the last year? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Absolutely, and it’s a very live issue. Especially now that we've been in the midst of, you know, an energy crisis which has then led to really rapidly rising energy bills, we are asking ourselves, you know, what are the priorities for government? Does the carbon agenda need to take a backseat to make sure that people can pay those bills? And there isn't a right answer. I think there are short-term and long-term agendas that are at play and sometimes opposed to each other in what we want to drive out of these things.

And I think different stakeholders, as you rightly point out, or people in their homes have very different concerns to businesses wanting to operate. And so, I think that's the reason why we've ended up in a situation where the domestic and non-domestic EPCs have different focuses. But as we move forward, as the net zero agenda becomes more important, or as energy security and fuel costs become more vital. Which one of those is the overriding one that should dictate what an EPC is for? 

It's a discussion that I'm sure we'll talk about a bit more as we talk about the future plans for EPCs, but it's one that we wrestle with a lot.

Stuart Fairlie: Yeah, I'm not surprised, Keeran, because, you know, we hear it, we see, we read the same newspapers and everything else. So I think the good news, and the half glass full – if that’s the expression - is the methodology is actually delivering all of those metrics. And we feel that the possibilities are endless, aren’t they? So, it is right that back in 2006/2007, when these things first came to more regulatory requirements, they were chosen on the cost and carbon. But actually, the good news is they can do all three on both non-domestic and on domestic homes.

So, as I said, whatever we want to do – I say we, the government, the stakeholders – it’s all possible. 

Andrew Parkin: I guess that would take us on to a natural question, which I was going to ask at the end, I suppose, and I'll probably keep my powder dry on that, which is what's next for the EPC? But in the here and now, I mean, they are used for so many different things and things that we perhaps don't always appreciate as well. You know, the energy performance certificate rating impacts what we perceive as value now within buildings and whether we say a building is worth more or worth less as a result of their energy performance. And that's something I think we always thought would happen and is happening now. Do you think that's a good thing? 

Stuart Fairlie: I think it's really, really important. It's just a shame, as Keeran said that it took a national, massive shift in prices to get people to sort of sit up and, unfortunately, say 'wow' – these things are interesting; maybe I should have looked at them a bit closer. 

I mean, sadly, people have always looked at them. To be honest, there's always a percentage of people who would have looked at that and said, that's a good decision to buy this home or this building. But in speaking to that sector, they’re going to say, but yeah, it has got a nice car park, it's got access to good schools, and they’re really, really important for people to make decisions, and quite frankly, that’s quite right. 

But energy, it took that seismic shift of fuel prices to really put it in its place. There's a lot of agenda around, as you said, net zero and getting that greenness, and that's always been a nice thing. But the shift, which is a great shame – and anybody that knows me knows that I’ve been shouting about this -  the idea that energy efficiency wasn't switching your fuel supplier, which seemed to be the only game in town for about 15 years and it's no longer the case.

It's actually that people have got to start saying, what can I do to reduce the energy I use in the building? And that's a different conversation. And that answers your question – they’re used for different reasons now. 

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, and Keeran, obviously, the regulations when they first came out were designed to work with the sale rental market. But we're seeing a lot more triggers of the EPC now. People are getting them done because the building’s changed, and they wanted the EPC to be reflective of those changes before they market a property, for example. 

We’ve also had MEES land as well in the last three or four years, which has been pretty seismic for our industry. How does the department sort of work with other departments on the uses of EPCs? You're kind of the custodians, but yet you're not the custodians of the methodology. 

Keeran Jugdoyal: That's right. So, it's quite a convoluted relationship from how my department owns the regulations that govern the requirement to have an EPC. However, the Department for Energy and Net Zero own the SAP or the methodology that sits underneath it for the domestic side. But, again, the non-domestic methodology lives somewhere else again. 

So it's more complicated than I think a lot of people appreciate. And I also, you know, in terms of who uses it, you mentioned MEES just there, but there are an increasing number of other government policies like grant schemes like the Boiler Upgrade Scheme, the warm home discount, that also rely on an EPC and would actually cause people to actually go out and have these measurements. 

And not only that, they are used for target setting. A lot of governments will measure how/or the progress against targets or against how EPCs have changed over time. So we've got a lot of stakeholders that we end up having to engage with, and they all have quite different (well, not all), but they certainly what they want out of their own EPC regime is different for different people, and keeping all of them happy and providing what they need is a challenge in the way that we try and see it within our particular team, is that we want to make the tape measure to measure something. And then what people do with that measurement is then up to them. So, we want to, or our focus should be on, making the most accurate and reliable tape measure for others to then build whatever they want to do with it and that they have trust in what comes out of that.

Stuart Fairlie: Brilliant answer from Keeran. I may pinch that if you don't mind. But the idea that, we've always said, you’re trying to keep as close to the truth as possible, aren't you, so people can, like you said, make a choice, and that doesn't have to be just the building owners, does it? It could be that like you said, the policymakers and saying, ‘well, I’ve presented you all this information. If you want to piggyback this policy to do X or this policy to achieve net zero, you've got the numbers to allow you to make that decision’. So, I wholeheartedly back to you on that one. 

Andrew Parkin: Excellent. Good, good, good discussion. And, of course, DLUHC now are the custodians of the Register as well, in Wales and Northern Ireland, which is a fairly big shift from where we were a couple of years ago, three or four years ago. That's important, isn't it, Keeran, that the government can be the custodians of that register? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Absolutely. It's made such a big difference. I mean, behind the scenes, one of the big changes that we made when we brought it in, and we've been very insistent on, is that the developers, the people with the, you know, the software, the code up on screen are sat right next to the policymakers. And discussion when we have discussions about how we want the policy to change. We have a lot of discussions about who are end users, what information do they need, and the people who can impact the change and test it with users are sat right there, and it's all part of the same discussion. 

And also, changes can be really quick. I think sometimes when you outsource a service, you write, you know, a two-year contract to deliver something, and to change the scope of that requires a change of contract, whereas now you can have a quick discussion. They start coding it the next day, and you see it, you know, a few days later. And it's made a huge difference also to you, our ability to share data.

You know, there are limits in the regulations on how free we can actually be about sharing data, which we're working through to try and be more liberal with that. However, because we own such a large data set, we've managed to be able to create back doors for people to come in - like other departments, let's say. I've mentioned that the Boiler Upgrade Scheme, which relies on EPCs, they don't need to go to the register. They can have government-to-government department access to that data to run their own services, which has just been a really great piece of joined-up government that, you know, cuts costs and makes it a really flexible service. 

Andrew Parkin: Right. I didn't know that. So, I've learned something here today already. Thanks, Keeran 

We're into, I think, the nitty gritty of our conversation now, which is we're currently in a situation where everyone's looking at their energy costs, the price of fuel, how to make their homes more efficient is part of what they're considering. There is a lot of focus on the EPC, which is great because that's what we've wanted for a long time haven’t we, Stuart? We wanted a light to be shone on the EPC – and it’s our time to shine, but we're getting a bit of criticism. Why do you think that is? 

Stuart Fairlie: I think it comes back to what we sort of touched on earlier. The EPC is - I think one of the headlines I saw was that they were misleading - I think this was this phrase that I've seen used, and I think they're misunderstood. I don't think they’re misleading. I think the fact is that we’ve already alluded to, they are used for so many different reasons. 

So, the classic example for a home, if we just stick to homes for a second, is, you know, it suggests a fuel bill for your house. And somebody says, that's not my bill. I use double the amount of its half of that or whatever. So it's not really about the people in the house because, as I said earlier, it's about these standard people averages. So, it's a good place to look and contrast various houses, to buy or to rent on the basis that you're comparing apples to apples. So, I think it's - the question it comes back to that earlier we talked about – is what are they, what are they not?

And I don't think EPCs will ever do absolutely everything we want them to do. We just need to build upon the basic infrastructure of the energy certificate in the first place and then overlay it with the occupancy. So, all of the various challenges and misunderstandings, in my humble opinion, is that we just need to go to the next phase. We need to go right. What do the occupants do in the house, or how much metered energy do they use? And those bits of information will add layers. You don’t get rid of one. You combine those three bits of data, and when you get to that, I think it will solve most people's problems. 

Andrew Parkin: I mean, Keeran, again, your department is probably getting queries and questions left, right and centre. What are you hearing? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, absolutely. We hear a lot about people questioning the accuracy of their EPCs. I think some of that comes down to not fundamentally understanding what it's there to measure. I think there's a general expectation that it's related to their in-use bills rather than the performance of the building itself. And - but I do think there are, you know, you said earlier that the EPC is quite a complicated methodology that sits behind it, but there's always room to get better, to improve, to take on board, as Stuart said, more data. 

There are some really interesting bits of research being done to see how smart meter data, along with other data, can give you a picture of how your buildings are performing. That's all you know; that's all in the kind of initial pilot phases. But if good things come out of that, who knows how that could be then introduced into the way that we go forwards and measure our buildings and incorporate all those good learnings into the EPC.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, I think it's a very interesting point in time. We've got a methodology that's of an age now and is going to go through another cycle of improvement, and then there's going to be a fairly big cycle of improvement we think, coming down the line in SAP 11, and that will reach into RdSAP and further development of the non-domestic methodologies. Technology's moving on at pace. We need to keep pace with that, don’t we? 

Stuart Fairlie: Yeah, I think that's the key, isn’t it? You need little and often improvements, as Keeran says, to get them as accurate as possible, and technology is going so fast. Fuel prices are changing quite rapidly. So, you need a sort of sensible approach to this so that these improvements, and on a timely basis, you don't want them every day because nobody then as a benchmark to actually compare and contrast, you can't have that. 

You have to have a bit of consistency for building regulations or some standards that are set against it. So, I think we can all have a reasonable compromise. But you are absolutely right. Keep improving them, keep getting better, keep getting as close to the truth as possible, and actually give the numbers back to those owners. And, as I said, you know, by freeing up that, you allow them hopefully to understand that a bit better.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, and I certainly think that they've been misrepresented for what an EPC is and what it isn’t. 

Stuart Fairlie: Do you think that it shows – it’s almost like the only game in town, and therefore by nature, everything hangs off it, and it's just not appropriate. And I think that sometimes, on a positive, at least they're there, and they’re the base position. On the negative, they’re just misunderstood.

Andrew Parkin: Yeah, yeah. And certainly, going back to, you know, the start and trying to replace them with something else and, this is my opinion, I think, just isn't going to achieve anything because we'll be back where we were 20 years ago staring at it. And we still have the same problems of repeatability and accuracy. A model is only… is fundamentally inaccurate, isn’t it? It’s just these degrees of inaccuracy built into every model, and one size doesn't fit all. 

But I mean, I will say this. I've been in the industry long enough, and I've seen the other things that have gone on in the industry. And, you know, it's very cyclical. You know, the same things come around again. And I do fundamentally believe in the methodologies and their ability to move forwards, to be adapted, to improve because that's how they've been built.

We will see some big changes to them in the future, and that's good as well. But I do think they are the starting point for an awful lot of things, and you build in other bits of data, bringing in data from different datasets, and you can really build up a good picture about a building - how it's used, its energy use, why it’s energy use is what it is. And I think that's where we're heading, isn't it? Ultimately. 

I think education is key, though, and I would be interested. I mean, Keeran, what do to know of anything happening in government at the moment around consumer education? It’s, or there’s been, a little bit that’s gone on the national press around energy costs and the fuel cost crisis. But is there anything coming down the line, do you think, that might help the consumer understand energy performance? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, absolutely. I think the governments are increasingly aware of the demand for people to get better quality information about what they can actually be doing in their own buildings. And that's not just because of the fuel bills or because of their concerns over climate. I think people, for their own reasons, have their own drivers for wanting to know what they can do.

And a lot of policies may be trying to drive, let's say, for example, the moves to install more heat pumps in buildings. This comes with the target to try and get to a lot more heat pumps over the next ten years. And people have been asking, how do I go about doing that? And they're looking for a trusted source of information. They don’t think, you know, if someone knocks on your door and offers you a heat pump, you’re wondering, well, what's their angle? Whereas, I think the government realizes there’s a role here for kind of impartial advice that people can trust and base their decisions on. And so, what we're at the very initial phase of is having a kind of one-stop shop of good quality information that kind of spans what can I do in this building that so that each individual - let's say there was a heat pump policy that funds projects so that it didn’t have to create its own advice service. It would use the same advice service that all other government policies do. 

And I think we're at the very initial phases of those kinds of discussions. But I think going forward, we're going to see a lot more in this space about just educating people about how to do more and be, or take action into their own hands in a way that people can trust that they're doing the right thing.

Stuart Fairlie: Yeah, it builds upon the whole thing of why we do it in the first place. It was always what was next. You didn't just stop an energy certificate, you know, ‘oh great, I’ve got one - I'm going to stick it in my drawer for being able to rent my house or let it’. It wasn't that, was it? It was actually to tell you that these were the things you could do over the next five or ten years. So, I agree with Karen on consumer education. 

But it also needs to be in the right language. It needs to be consumer friendly, doesn't it? We could talk about very, very technical stuff, but people just gloss over it - they just really want to know; some people would only want to know the basics, but that next step of where to go to next - that's the challenge and I think we're in that space, Keeran. That space of ‘I need to go and do A and B’, where do I go next? 

And to be fair, an awful lot of activity is taking place in and around retrofit and stuff. I think again that the stars are aligning but not quite as quickly as everybody wants it for the mass scale with 26 million homes or whatever. But we're getting there. 

Andrew Parkin: It’s always been a big challenge, hasn’t it? And to an extent, it's been a challenge that could be dealt with another time. When we look back, we are in that time now, and I think a decade of change, maybe 15 years of change, from all, all areas. You know, how we use our buildings and how we use our homes is going to change. It's already changed. 

Covid has taught us that – we’re at home more often, we use it for work. We're going to soon be using them to charge our vehicles if we get an electric car. And so that's a big change. But are they going to become mini power plants themselves? The way we use them is going to change. If a heat pump is installed, the way it's heated in the temperatures and the cycles will change.

So we've got to educate. We've also got to think about what that change means and the order in which to do things. And setting the expectations for consumers as well, I think, is really important. The news that I hear is that, right, heat pumps don’t work, or they work for me, but they don't work for me. And it’s like, well, that's because people have started on the wrong footing. They don't realize that you probably need to change yourself and your building in order to get into this period of transition. 

Stuart Fairlie: Yeah, I mean, if people – I’ll go back - different people, have different drivers. And I think Keeran said earlier, you know, people will focus on what they want to focus on for that particular period. And I keep coming back to – and for anyone who’s seen anything from Elmhurst – we talk about the sort of food label approach to an EPC, and it always makes me chuckle. Sort of thinking, you know, you don't tell the person going to the supermarket, you must buy this. They go, and they make their decision based on what their belief is that they want from that. You know, is it the salt? Is it saturated fats? Is that whatever? And you could help, and you can nudge people to make good choices if you want them to or you incentivize them.

And I'm not putting Keeran on the spot, but there are various ways the government could go around incentivizing people like, say, with grants and funding to encourage the behaviour they want them to do, or you regulate and say your house should be or your building should be this. But again, I think it comes down to people and people understanding what they want and delivering that sort of message.

And, you know, I don't think there's a magic bullet that solves energy, carbon, and cost at the moment. And that, to me is a big challenge we’ve got at the moment as well. 

Andrew Parkin: Yeah. Keeran, I'll come to you because the change isn't just going to be in the industry and within the consumer or within the home. It's going to be within regulation and legislation.

There are lots of things in progress at the moment, and there are some consultations that have been out there for a long time that need concluding. But fundamentally, there's a legislative challenge ahead, isn't there, from EPBR? Do you want to just cover a little bit about that? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, absolutely. You’re right. As you’re aware, EPCs are derived from a European directive, but we now no longer have to maintain alignment with them.

So, we're now in a position where we're free to kind of define what the future of EPC regulations looks like in a way that works specifically for us in the UK. And so, as part of that, we’re currently looking to seek new powers to create new regulations at the moment. For those of you who follow Parliament, you may have noticed there's an energy bill going through Parliament that hopefully will be enacted at some point this year and at which point, within there, are new powers for us to make brand new energy performance of building regulations.

Now, we don't have any particular plans to scrap the existing ones and replace them with anything new. As I said, there's too much already in place. There are too many existing schemes and targets that rely on knowing that the existing regime will be maintained. However, there is a real opportunity to do something more going forwards. To kind of add more to what we do. To create, to provide more accurate, reliable, and trustworthy EPCs.

And so, hopefully, within the next six months or so, we will go out to consultation on what those new regulations could look like. We've got a range of questions asking people their views on what you would like to see on your EPC and what you would like it to do for you. What would you like that information to provide you that will then allow you to take the steps to make a real change?

So those are the kinds of questions you would want to answer with this consultation. And then once we get everybody's feedback of what they want, we can then go ahead and redraft the regulations that support those actions that really allow people to make decisions in their own homes and allows businesses to build products and services that, you know, are aligned with improving our building stock and allow regulators who are in the wider EPC ecosystem, the MEES and the various grant funds to then build proper regulations that are supported by this brand-new framework. So that's all coming up. Hopefully, you'll start seeing it this year, through a consultation and then ongoing in the next few years through the implementation of the findings that we get from that. 

Andrew Parkin: And part of that is data as well. We’ve got issues at the moment with data?

Keeran Jugdoyal: Absolutely. So, yes, one of the big things that we want to unlock is making data really work for people. We have one of the most comprehensive data sets in government, in the EPC register. It's just such a valuable resource on what the state of our country’s houses look like – both houses and non-domestic buildings. And it's so useful to be able to just take snapshots across the piece and say, ‘here are the areas we need to focus on’ - it is where we can see we've made improvements from various policies and making that more available to all, to the people who own the buildings, to people who plan products and services, who are looking for innovations to lenders to make it available for all these people in the most granular and valuable way is a key part of what it. 

Andrew Parkin: I think it’s one of the most essential parts of what you'll be doing over the next two or three years. The point there is two or three years. So, we need to set expectations, don’t we? That there are organisations out there, individuals who want this stuff now. But we are a couple of years away, really, from things starting to be implemented. So that's what’s important to say. I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to come in on for that one Stuart. 

Stuart Fairlie: No, I'm delighted to hear that. You know, we need to see that, as Keeran says. You know, ‘here’s all the ideas; what does everybody else think of them’. And, from that, we can make some changes. It will never be perfect. That's the point, isn't it? But it needs to be that evolving process that just keeps going back about quality, back about confidence in what I'm getting. It’s as up-to-date as possible. It's easy to read and understand, and you can go from there to somewhere else to make good decisions and all the nice words. But I think it's a joined-up approach. One thing in itself will not make a massive difference, but all of those things together, I think, will. And so yeah, we really welcome it when we see it, and we can obviously feed that out to as many people and stakeholders as we can. They will have some sensible responses to it, really. 

Andrew Parkin: Excellent, good to know. So where does that leave the EPC, the EPC action plan? Because that was in progress and still is in progress. Will we continue to see developments in those areas, or is that now waiting on the consultation and the regulations?

Keeran Jugdoyal: No, it's an ongoing piece that when it first came out, there were 35 actions. We managed to complete 11 of them (about a third, really), and another third actually requires legislative changes. So we’re waiting on that consultation and then updated regulations, and then the final third, some of them have moved into business as usual improvement. So. they're not things that ever come to an end that we can cross off the list and say they’re done. 

In fact, just last week, we as a team went through all the actions and categorised them into what's complete, what's waiting on the consultation, and what is now in business as usual. And there are only two or three which are not in that or in one of those three categories. We still need some targeted action to complete. 

And I have a plan, well, we as a team have a plan, to make sure that, you know, within the coming months, we pick up a bit of momentum on those final ones and really get that action plan. Draw a line under it so we can move forward with the new actions that come forward to the consultation.

Andrew Parkin: I mean, one of those things in the action plan was an updated methodology. We've seen SAP 10.2 come out last year. It's been a challenging period for everyone concerned, but we're sort of coming out of the end of that now. We're looking at RdSAP 10. Is there anything further to say on RdSAP 10 at this moment in time?

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, so, absolutely. We recognize that, you know, under normal time frames, RdSAP will follow SAP changes fairly rapidly. However, due to a number of disruptions, it's been slowed down somewhat, but it is very much a live piece of work that the Department of Energy and Net-Zero are taking forwards. I had a meeting with them very recently, and I think they are moving it forward. I think there's going to be some announcements on that one. 

Actually, I’m not sure how much I can say on this one, but obviously, between the two of us, I met them yesterday… 

Andrew Parkin: I suspect there will be a future podcast on RdSAP. 

Keeran Jugdoyal: But, you know, can I say it’s going forward? RdSAP is moving forwards. We hope to be able to make an announcement on that one. 

Stuart Fairlie: I, as Keeran says, it needs to happen, so it’s with the Department of Energy. The interesting dilemma that we've all got as well is that we know and are recognising that they’re going to do a consultation on SAP 11 shortly because the timescale against the future homes and future building standards for non-domestic is 2025.

So, those consultations are going to happen pretty rapidly too. And obviously, I don't think that they are with DLUHC anyone – I think they’re gone to the health and safety, haven’t they? So, sort of, I think, as Keeran says, the regulations and who is owning which part is sort of a moving piece, isn't it? So, time marches on, doesn’t it?

Andrew Parkin: It does. And I can’t believe we're now halfway through 2023, and the new building regulations are a year and a half away. 

Stuart Fairlie: They're not far at all. 

Andrew Parkin: They're not far at all.  So, it is… the pace of progress needs to happen because the size of the challenge is so great. We've got to reduce our carbon emissions; we've got to cut down on global warming. And the only way to do that is to focus on the areas that are producing lots of carbon – transport, buildings… 

Stuart Fairlie: I think something that Keeran… I would never put you on the spot Keeran, but it’s something that you mentioned earlier about fuel security, funnily enough, and has suddenly become quite front and centre. So, you know, it works at the micro level of somebody’s individual building – their home or their business. But at the macro level, this is important stuff, as Keeran says, that data that the government sits on is like a gold pot of information for so many different levels of the economy, and everybody's got something to do in this space, and each government department, I'm sure, has got different stuff to do in the space as well. So yeah, interesting times.

Andrew Parkin:  So, what I'm hearing, just to sort of conclude… I'm going to ask a question, and then I'll sum up and come back to you for your answers. What can we do next that will improve our industry? So obviously, to you, Keeran and to Stuart – you can have a think about that simple question, what can we do next to improve our industry? I'll come back to you in a second. 

But what I'm hearing is - EPCs are an important part of so many things that we're doing at the moment. The data that sits behind them, the data that our members are collecting day in and day out, is really, really important data. It's relied upon; it’s quoted. It’s used – used for research; it's used by different organizations. The data is becoming more freer and will be freer in the future, we hope. And there is a future for everything that our members are involved in. It's a really exciting time to be an energy assessor. It's a really exciting time to be involved in retrofit. We are at the start of this decade or so of change, and we're all going to have to move fairly quickly to keep up with that change, which, in itself, is exciting. 

So, I suppose I can if I was to give my two words: I am excited, but I'm frustrated. And I've said this a couple of times now, I want to get on. I want us to get on with making a difference because it's about making a difference and the majority of people in our industry are in it to do good work - to make a difference.

And never before has it been so important that we do a good job. So what can we do to improve our industry? Stuart Fairlie. 

Stuart Fairlie: Me, oh, I was hoping you were going to Keeran first. I, if I had to call one thing, I think I’d like to see, what I would refer to as the occupancy model, become more upfront. So, the idea is that the asset is the energy calculation. You then the people and you do an occupancy model for them to basically model or predict what they should use in a building. So that takes care of an awful lot of the misunderstanding. Because Keeran has already rightly identified that we're looking at the meter data and bringing that back in.

So again, a bit of focus on occupancy – we’re very much about asset and SAP and RdSAP, and all these models have been improved. I think the big chunk that's missing is the occupancy model because the meter is now starting to come back. And I think if we get all three, I think then we really have to have a proper informed debate with people. So, that would be my plan. 

Andrew Parkin: Okay. Excellent. Keeran, any thoughts from you? 

Keeran Jugdoyal: Yeah, so I'm going to think about it with my net zero buildings hat on, as well as my EPC one. And I think there's a role for government to be more joined up in all manner of regulations and incentives that the EPC is part of, you know. It is the building block for which so many other things then build off and it needs to lead to action because, by 2050, every single one of our homes will not be using gas or fossil fuels as its heating source. And that requires such a massive amount of action to take place – not just information, not just guidance, but people doing things.

And I think there's a role for them to kind of really join up the EPC with all the other agendas, not just the decarbonization, but the decent home standards. You know, we have some of the oldest building stock in Europe, and there are numerous issues of damp and mould and all these other health and well-being issues that need addressing in these buildings. 

If we're going to go in and fix them from an energy and carbon point of view, we need to fix those other things which are all related. I think we as governments need to step up and make sure that we're linking in and providing the information that then leads to action that addresses the quality of our buildings as a whole.

Andrew Parkin: I really like that answer. And next time I see you, Keeran, I want to see you wearing your net zero buildings hat because I don't know what that looks like, but I can imagine it's amazing! So let’s see if you accept that challenge. 

Keeran Jugdoyal, thank you very much for attending our first podcast. This is going to go out to all our membership, all the x-number of thousands of members out there, and to the wider world. So fame and fortune are yours, absolutely guaranteed, and I look forward to you coming back and talking to us in an unspecified period of time and giving us an update on all those points.

Keeran Jugdoyal: I'd be absolutely delighted to, thanks.

Andrew Parkin: Fantastic. Thank you very much. And Stuart Fairlie from Elmhurst Energy, you'll be on one of these in probably a couple of weeks’ time, so I'll let you take a break and enjoy the rest of your day. 

Stuart Fairlie: Thank you. 

Andrew Parkin: To our listeners, thank you very much; I hope you enjoyed that first podcast. There's more to come. We will have a schedule of these throughout the year, so keep your ears to the ground, and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, and you'll get them delivered directly to your device or something like that. So, have a good one, enjoy the summer when it starts, and yeah – have a good one, and good luck with all your EPCs and retrofit activities.